Segnalo ai carissimi lettori quest'intervista a Mark Fitzpatrick, uno dei principali esperti internazionali in materia di proliferazione nucleare. Data la lunghezza originale ne ho estrapolato i punti salienti ma consiglio comunque di leggerla interamente.
What are Iran's nuclear capabilities?
There is no doubt that Iran is seeking a nuclear weapon's capability, and I think this is beyond reproach except from somebody who is ready to believe anything Iran says. Just based on the economic logic of their program, the military ties, the evidence of nuclear weapons development work, the lying, the hidden nature of it and so forth–everything points to a desire to be able to build nuclear weapons should they make the decision. I don't know that anyone can say that they have made a decision. I don't know that they've decided themselves whether to produce nuclear weapons, but they want to be close enough so that if when they make a decision, they can do it. And that's the threat.
The deliverability part of it is exacerbated by Iran's simultaneous pursuit of ballistic missiles that are capable of carrying a nuclear weapon if Iran can make it small enough. The development of Iran's program points toward being able to deliver a first generation 1 ton sized nuclear weapon at a distance that could easily hit Israel. They do not have a missile that today could deliver a nuclear weapon to Europe–and why would they it wouldn't make any sense. But certainly they would like to have what to their minds would be a deterrent capability vis-à-vis Israel; it would also be potentially useful to them to be able to threaten Gulf states.
What Iran possesses today and what they are developing seems to me clearly to be directed at Israel and other countries in their near neighborhood within 2200km. The Sejil is their most worrisome ballistic missile, it has a reach of 2000+–say 2200-2600km–that puts Israel squarely on the target by means of a missile that is deployed far enough back from Iran's borders that it wouldn't be susceptible to preemption.
Given what we know about Saddam Hussein's actual nuclear capabilities, how can we be sure that the Iranian regime isn't also bluffing and merely trying to look tough?
It's a good question; though it's an easy question to answer. In the case of Iran we have IAEA reports of inspectors. We know what its nuclear capabilities are. We know what their missile capabilities are–not on the basis of inspections, but on the basis of tests. It's all observable activity and nothing is presumed here about what the actual capability that they have.
The only presumption is the one that jumps from Iran's capability to the assessment that what they seek is a nuclear weapons capability; few analysts who would argue with that. The only argument would be about whether Iran has already made a decision to develop a nuclear weapon or not.
It's pretty clear that Iran until 2004 was engaged in weapons development work. Have they continued since? The British French and Israeli intelligence all think that they have. In 2007, the US NIE assessment argued that Iran had suspended their interest in developing a weapon, but that report is now being reassessed.
American and German neoconservatives and Iran-hawks (certainly a minority group in Germany, but increasingly vocal here too) argue that the Iranian regime is too ideological, irrational, and therefore unappeasable. Is this true?
We need to distinguish between the argument about Iran's "irrationality" and its "unappeasability."
I certainly disagree that Iran is irrational. This is demonstrably false: When Iran has been faced with severe national trauma it has taken decisions that a rational country would take. In the case of the Iran-Iraq war, Iran accepted a ceasefire–they did this late and lost thousands of young men when they should have accepted it far earlier–finally because it was in their national interest. They may not behave like Western states, but there is a rationality to their actions–the desire to yield more influence and gain more prestige in the Middle East for example–that is not irrational. And finally, the most important reason that Iran cannot be considered irrational is that the decision making process in government is based on consensus. There is not one sole decision maker. Even if one man is deeply ideological or irrational; decisions are made based on consensus, which ultimately leads to rationality.
Is Iran appeasable?
Now, that's a different question and I'm not sure about the answer to that one. The question boils down to Iran's intentions: does it want a nuclear weapons capability more than anything else? And if so than no, they are not appeasable. No amount of sanctions or positive incentives will dissuade or stop a country that has decided to pursue capability or bust. Look at the case of Pakistan: their former president said that if India get's nuclear weapons, we'll pursue them even if we have to eat grass.
In Iran's case, I don't really see why they would feel the same; they don't have an India-like enemy. I don't know that they've decided that they want nuclear weapons above all else. Which is why we should try negotiating strategies that increase the benefits if they do suspend their program and enforce sanctions if they do not suspend it.
Some have argued that these are simply temporary rational compromises for a regime that wants to move toward ultimately irrational apocalyptic ends–like for example the destruction of Israel. What do you make of the leadership's calls to destroy Israel?
There is no evidence that the leadership is moving toward apocalyptic goals. To me that is so out of the realm of consciousness; it's just imaginations gone wild.
As for the goal of destroying Israel, I don't think this is Iran's goal. In Farsi, the meaning of Ahmadenijad's statements is that Israel would cease to exist as a Zionist State in the sense that Palestinian majority would vote within a state that would cease to be Jewish. That's what he means by this statement. I don't doubt that some Iranians would like to attack Israel, but they know that this would be a suicidal effort because of Israel's second strike capability. Many Neocons take it at face value that he means by force, but this is incorrect.
What is the objective of the most recent 4th round of UN sanctions?
None of the countries who have promoted sanctions think that they will change Iran's behavior.
There are 3 objectives to sanctions: First, to bring Iran back to the negotiating table in sincerity. Second, to restrict Iran's ability to acquire the wherewithal to expand their nuclear program. Unless they can acquire the materials and comp from overseas suppliers. They can't produce everything domestically. If their access to overseas supplies is limited, it's a way of keeping their program in bounds. Third, the broad purpose of heightening the downsides to their pursuit of capability. So that the Iranian people can see that there is a price to be paid. So that in future negotiations, you can withdraw those sanctions as incentive. And to show potential Iran wanabees that there is a price to be paid. That disincentive is crucial.
Are sanctions working?
They are certainly working for the second and third objectives. As for the first, it is too early to tell. Iran is talking about returning to the negotiating table, but it is not talking about it seriously enough yet. It hasn't agreed to any date or specific agenda. Catherin Ashton has been trying to get Iran back to the table and Iran has been signaling that maybe they'll be ready to do so soon. But again it's too early to tell. I'm hopeful that they may come back.
What happens if sanctions fail and Iran doesn't return to negotiate?
There are two broad categories of strategy: the first is one that I do not advocate and that's the strategy of military action to stop the program kinetically–
Ever?
No, I don't say "ever." There is a time and place for military action, when they cross the line between capability and production. Right now they have growing capability. If they were to test a nuclear weapon or to expel inspectors, or to produce weapons grade uranium, or to declare themselves a nuclear state (all things that North Korea did), well then yes, I think it would be grounds for attack to stop them from delivering a nuclear weapon.
A military strike is to my mind a potentially a lose-lose option. It probably would create conditions in Iran that would lead them to acquire a weapon for sure in possibly a shorter time than they would otherwise, because they would have the concerted effort of the nation and national economy toward this one goal of getting a nuclear weapon. And it is not a concerted effort today to go as fast as they can. If you look at the time it has taken them since they started this program in 1985–25 years–and they are still not there. Pakistan took about 10 years, but they had a concerted effort to get there. So if Iran were bombed today, it would set them back a few years, but then they would probably by hook or crook be determined to get it.
You'll set them back by a few years but give them a sense of national unity and an international excuse that much of the 3rd world would applaud: Iran was attacked so they have every right now to pursue nuclear weapons.
And the second strategy?
The second strategy is deterrence and containment: this is a tried and true strategy that has been proven effective for the West vis-à-vis the Soviet Union and China. They deterred those countries from ever using a nuclear weapon. They contained them from expanding their influence.
I think in this case, deterrence can work not only in preventing Iran from using a weapon but also from producing it. If Iran knows that the production of a nuclear weapon will result in a military attack, I think that could be an effective deterrent that would keep them on the capability side of the line (rather than actually producing it). As long as they don't cross that line to producing, it will be hard for Americans to condone another military action in the Middle East, but if Iran crosses the line, I think most Americans realize this would require military action. Willingness to use military force is absolutely necessary for deterrence to work.
Containment policies will keep the program limited. Sanctions and export controls are one form of containment, but there are others. Sabotage efforts to try to destroy or introduce imperfections in their equipment. This has been successful in the past and is one of the reasons Iran's program isn't working so well.
Are the US or Israel capable of a successful military attack?
Yes, absolutely. I think it's a good thing that Iran knows that a military option is a real option. I certainly think it is a real option. Iran glibly postures that the US is too overextended or that Israel doesn't have the capabilities for an attack. This is wrong. Israel does have the capability and the US would also be willing if necessary. The nature of the Iraq war has changed and the US is not nearly as extended as it was before.
scusa Sile, cancella il commento di sopra… in nero!
ok, si deve di fatto vedere se vuole l' "arma suprema" – come la definì Panella anni fa in un convegno – oppure no, sopra ogni cosa.
ma mi chiedo io da un po' di tempo: se gli elementi evidenti o riservati puntassero indubitabilmente verso l'ipotesi che l'Iran voglia assolutamente l'atomica (intendendo con ciò farne un uso alla meglio di deterrente, alla peggio offensivo verso Israele), a quel punto cosa farebbe la comunità internazionale?
cioè, pardon, che decide di fare l'America?
parlo di America perché aspettarsi una posizione unanime dalla Ue è … fantapolitica, la Russia si sa che tanto appoggia l'Iran (come fa con la Cina da tempo oramai), quindi…?
Israele va a tirare la giacchetta di Obama?
Israele ci pensa da sola?
Ma è Israele davvero in REALE pericolo?
l'America si imbatte in un altro conflitto, per di più preventivo, dando l'ultimo colpo di grazia alla credibilità del "premio nobel per la GUERRA in Afghanistan", dopo che oramai hanno capito tutto che si scrive Obama ma si legge Bush jr.?
e, facciamoci del male, noi come Italia, all'Ue, che… proporremmo? sanzioni? niente programmi endemol per 2 anni? perché pure qui da noi, i rapporti commerciali sono fitti e non so se vogliamo rinunciarci… (tanto è vero che sta cosa oltreoceano non fa troppo piacere…)
intanto che ci rifletto, aspetto i vostri pareri!
Ma di certo concordo con le conseguenze della prima ipotesi, cioè con gli effetti disastrosi in termini futuri che un attacco OGGI porterebbe.
Mentre la seconda ipotesi… mi pare la faccia semplice con il “contenimento e il deterrente”, perché alla fine se l’Iran la fa fuori dal vasino, sempre all’attacco militare si torna, se invece sta buona (per paura dell’ATTACCO? Appunto…) allora tutto resta tranquillo… insomma, sempre la forza militare serve, ma soprattutto: l’Iran lo sa di già, credo, cosa rischia.. ma se sviluppa l’arma apertamente, o di nascosto e viene beccato, sempre allo scenario 1 torniamo: viene attaccato perché in procinto … forse un giorno … chissà se e come …di produrre una arma atomica e diventa l’ennesima vittima dell’ “imperialismo americano”, raccogliendo tutte le simpatie del quadrante…
Vate, tu non puoi sottrarti, lo sai…
saluti!
Giano,,,sei per caso un gobbo bianconero? :))
(dai no, eh)
Linus
Giano, hai chiesto nulla…. ;))))
En.
lo so Enrico
linus… scusa non t'ho capito! :O
Giano, ha ragione Enrico: bella domanda… ;))
Io credo che sia altamente probabile che ALLO STATO ATTUALE delle cose un Iran dotato di armamento nucleare non sarà tollerato dalla comunità internazionale. Non intendo solo da Israele e dagli USA ma credo anche dalla Russia e dalla Cina, oltre che dai Paesi arabi ovviamente. Con tutto ciò che ne consegue.
Credo inoltre, avendo un minima di conoscenza del pensiero strategico persiano, che l'Iran non punti tanto a dotarsi di una bomba quanto ad arrivare alla capacità di soglia ed è su questo punto che, secondo me, si gioca la questione.
Buonasera a tutti, ed in particolare all'anfitrione silendo.
Il problema, a mio parere, non è tanto la reale capability tecnica di lanciare un vettore nucleare (2500 km di gittata, ammettendo tabriz come lancio, può comprendere istambul, cipro, egitto israele), quanto l'effetto annuncio che tale possibilità potrebbe scatenare nel mondo islamico ed in particolare in medio oriente e sulle miserevoli folle (più soggette al fascino di atteggiamenti fondamentalisti).
L'ascendente della rivoluzione islamica iraniana sulle frange estremiste islamiche è sempre d'attualità, e queste sono sempre alla ricerca di avanguardie che le guidino, anche solo negli assetti simbolici.
L'Iran cerca di entrare nel circolo delle relazioni internazionali proponendosi quale riferimento unico per i problemi del medio oriente e del mondo arabo, ritenendosi ineccepibile dal punta di vista etico religioso, a differenza del regno saudita che è considerato "immorale" avendo permesso l'accesso sul "sacro suolo" degli infedeli.
I guardiani della rivoluzione, ed in particolare il loro consiglio, eterodirigono il presidente Ahmadinejad e, loro volta, sono guidati dalla sharia.
Non credo abbiano paura ne' di attacchi nè di misure di contromisure economiche, tutt'altro, credo siano consapevoli della loro inferiorità militare (non geografica, posizione inespugnabile) ma seguendo uno schema che è connaturato con la loro cultura e religione, cercano il sacrificio/martirio come virtù.
Nell'etica shiita ci sta purè una certa propensione per il martirio, e questo spiega le esternazioni sfidanti iraniane.
scusate dimenticavo la firma del #6
hastatus
Hastatus buonasera.
Ti do il mio parere sulle motivazioni politico-strategiche che spingono la leadership iraniana a cercare l'arma nucleare o a percorrerne la strada (che è una cosa un po' diversa).
L'Iran, per caratteristiche geostrategiche e geopolitiche, per popolazione, per economia, ecc…, è una potenza regionale. Vuole quindi essere riconosciuta come tale ovvero vuole che il proprio status e la propria area d'influenza vengano riconosciute a livello internazionale. Il nucleare le fornirebbe il "timbro" ufficiale di potenza regionale. Quantomeno il percorso verso il nucleare è una carta da giocare sul tavolo delle trattative.
A ciò si aggiunge l'evidente senso di accerchiamento, peraltro comprensibilissimo, di cui soffre l'Iran nonchè la debolezza delle proprie forze convenzionali. In quest'ultimo caso, è un dato storico, gli Stati proliferatori ritengono più conveniente, anche economicamente, dotarsi di un armamento nucleare minimo anzichè spendere valanghe di soldi per acquistare più avanzati sistemi d'arma convenzionali.
Parere personale, come sempre
Tra l'altro mi sembra proprio che nemmeno l'opposizione di governo sia contraria alla strada nucleare. ( Parlo dell'opposizione possibile non dell'onda verde).
E questo proprio per le ragioni dette da Sil.
si concordo con voi!
saluti
hastatus
Giano, eheh
era solo una battuta relativa al fatto che avevi messo un post in bianco e uno in nero, inizialmente :))
Linus
Concordo, Sil.
A.
concordo con Vate!
linus, poi ho capito